Good Reason

It's okay to be wrong. It's not okay to stay wrong.

Category: atheism (page 12 of 17)

Email: The atheist professor

Dear Sister has sent me this email again, so she must be trying to convey something. It’s one of those glurgy stories where the wily student turns the tables on the Atheist Professor.

Aah, the college professor. I don’t know why people love to bash on them. Maybe they got bad grades in college. Or possibly they had their faith challenged by someone smart and it frightened them. Now they’re hostile to Book Larnin’. Or perhaps there’s this malaise among some religious people, like science is making great strides in understanding the world and the universe, and they’re just stuck there in church like every other week, sucking in the vacuity. They understand that science and reason is in opposition to their god (which is why they warn each other to be cautious about it), but they can’t figure out what to do about it, and it’s frustrating. They could take on the problem, but that might be hard. It’s so much easier to forward an email instead.

Goodness knows this is all I ever do in class — argue with students about god — especially because we aren’t busy doing any actual course material. I’ve got free time to burn, which is why I often take the opportunity to belittle my students about their religious beliefs. And they love it — it’s why they worship lecturers like gods, and immediately take on their slightest opinions.

The actual email is very long and boring, so I’m putting it below the jump, with my comments.

Subject: Science vs God…Very interesting

Long, but lively and stimulating:) & WONDERFUL
Science vs God…Very interesting

“Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ.” The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

I start every lecture this way, except I’m plunging a dagger into a teddy bear. But I’m always very careful to make sure there are no Marines in my class. One time I challenged a god to knock me over. It didn’t go well.

“You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?”
Yes sir,” the student says.

“So you believe in God?”
“Absolutely.”

“Is God good?”
“Sure! God’s good.”

“Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?”
“Yes.”

“Are you good or evil?”
“The Bible says I’m evil.”

Imagine that your holiest book, what you consider to be the source of all divine knowledge, tells you you’re evil. That’s quite the head trip.

The professor grins knowingly. “Aha! The Bible!” He considers for a moment.
“Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?”
“Yes sir, I would.”
“So you’re good…!” 
“I wouldn’t say that.”
“But why not say that?  You’d help a sick and maimed person if you could.  
Most of us would if we could. But God doesn’t..”
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. “He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him.  How is this Jesus good?  Hmmm?  Can you answer that one?”

The student remains silent.
“No, you can’t, can you?” the professor says.  He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

No, he can’t, can he? Ability implies responsibility. Any of us would help, because we’re good moral beings. But the god of the apologists fails to do so because it would somehow render our existence meaningless, or something.

“Let’s start again, young fella, is God good?”
“Er…yes,” the student says.

“Is Satan good?”
The student doesn’t hesitate on this one. “No.”

“Then where does Satan come from?”
The student : “From…God…”

“That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?”
“Yes, sir.”

“Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it?  And God did make everything, correct?”
“Yes.”

“So who created evil?”  The professor continued, “If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.”
Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: “Is there sickness?  Immorality?  Hatred?  Ugliness?  All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?”
The student: “Yes.”

“So who created them?”
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. “Who created them? There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

I’m mesmerised myself, but then what do I know? I thought that theodicy meant ‘theological idiocy’. Actually, maybe I’m not far wrong.

“Tell me,” he continues onto another student. “Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?”
The student’s voice is confident: “Yes, professor, I do.”

The old man stops pacing. “Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?”
“No sir. I’ve never seen Him”

“Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your Jesus?”
“No, sir, I have not.”

“Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?”
“No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.”

Never smelt your Jesus? What kind of Christian are you? Or is that some kind of bizarre euphemism?

“Yet you still believe in him?”
“Yes.”

“According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?”
“Nothing,” the student replies. “I only have my faith.”

“Yes, faith,” the professor repeats. “And that is the problem science has with God. 
There is no evidence, only faith.”

So far, so good.

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own.

“Professor, is there such thing as heat?”
“Yes,” the professor replies. “There’s heat.” 

“And is there such a thing as cold? asked the student.
“Yes, son, there’s cold too.”

“No sir, there isn’t.”
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. 
  
The student begins to explain.

“You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.”

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

Why do they always write the professor like he’s a dumbass? I knew this one and I’m in linguistics, for criminy. (And just for the record, absolute zero is −459.67° F, but it’s hard to remember the details in a debate.)

“What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?”
“Yes,” the professor replies without hesitation. “What is night if it isn’t darkness?”

“You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?”

So what? He’s a professor of philosophy, not physics — cut him some slack.

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. “So what point are you making, young man?”

“Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.” The professor’s face cannot hide his surprise this time. “Flawed? Can you explain how?”

“You are working on the premise of duality,” the student explains.. “You argue that there is life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought.

And religion can? If anything is going to explain thought, it’ll be neuroscience and not revelation.

It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.”

He’s a monist? Would many Christians agree with this? I thought Satan was necessary to keep the heat off of god for doing all those rotten things. As in “Oh, it’s not god’s fault. It’s his patsy, Satan.” Maybe a Christadelphian wrote this.

Just so I don’t lose track, let’s keep a list of things that do not exist:
Cold
Darkness
Evil
Death

Notice also that, since the previous student admitted that he was evil, he technically doesn’t exist.

“Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?”
“If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do”

Of course he does. We’ve already established that he’s obnoxious and evil. Why wouldn’t he be pro-evolution?

“Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?”
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

Yes, you can observe evolution with your own eyes. Evolution has been observed in the lab.

“Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a just scientist, but a also a preacher?”

No.

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
“To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.”
The student looks around the room. “Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?” 
The class breaks out into laughter.

“Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain, felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelled the professor’s brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?”

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. “I guess you’ll have to take them on faith.”

Now the story has reached the pinnacle of dumbth. Which is not a thing; it is merely the absence of smartness.

If you’re not sure if there’s a brain in your head, I can reassure you: it’s very likely that you do. It’s not something you have to take on faith.

a. If you dissect a cadaver, you will observe a brain inside. You can repeat this experiment as many times as you like, for as many cadavers as you can find. We can then generalise to other humans, thus: humans have brains.

b. We can infer the existence of your brain by observing your behaviours. You can talk, breathe, move, and see. These are things that brains do. We know this because when people’s brains are damaged, they stop doing these things.

c. Some kinds of brain surgery have to be done when the patient is awake. If you have this kind of surgery, you can see your brain with the help of a couple of mirrors.

d. If you’re really not sure, come see me and I’ll get the band saw for some old school trepanation. I can guarantee that it won’t kill you because (as we’ve seen) death doesn’t exist. It’s just a word we use to describe your soon-to-be absence of life.

I’ve noticed a pattern when arguing with Christians. Their reliance on evidence is really selective. If you make a point, it’ll take extraordinary evidence for them to believe it. You could bring them all the evidence you like, and they still probably won’t believe you — as long as it’s something they don’t want to believe. But when they want to believe something, then they can be convinced by the merest hint of a possibility that it might be true. In fact, all they need to do is find out that an alternative belief might have a slight gap in it, and it sends them scampering back to whatever they want to believe, where it’s safe.

“Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,” the student continues. “Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?”

Now uncertain, the professor responds, “Of course, there is. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.”

To this the student replied, “Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

Why isn’t God just a word that man has created to describe the absence of evil? Apparently it only works one way.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.”

The professor sat down.

On a whoopie cushion.

Pass this on if you have faith.

In summary, no one has seen the professor’s brain, therefore everything has to be taken on faith, including evolution. Science is just as poor a way of thinking as faith is, which presupposes that faith isn’t a good way of thinking. Cold isn’t an actual thing, and therefore God’s off the hook for any evil happening around the place because apparently evil and death don’t exist, although God somehow does.

Clear?

UWA Atheist & Agnostic Society posters

At last, all the posters that have graced our fine campus this semester, and all in the one place. Collect the set!

How to persuade? And who?

I ran across two similar articles the other day. One’s about religion, one’s about politics, and both are taking me to task.

Must science declare a holy war on religion?

The so-called New Atheists are attacking the mantra of science and faith being compatible. Others in the science community question the value of confrontation.

Ooo, confrontation. Sounds confronting. It seems that atheist scientists are being mean, publishing books, and loudly declaring that God probably doesn’t exist. Doing science, in other words.

And then there’s this article:

Are liberals seceding from sanity?

The left is crazy to insult white Southerners as a group

which takes liberals to task for South-bashing, and the only example offered is Kevin Drum. But never mind. The article warns us:

They are erring neighbors to be won over, not cretins to be mocked.

At which point I ask: Is it too much to ask for both?

Let’s examine the question that ties these two articles together: how do we act toward people who disagree with us? And there are at least two possible answers:

  1. Be nice, keep quiet, persuade them with reason, and sooner or later they’ll come around if we don’t hurt their feelings and (all together now) alienate them.
  2. Be loud and proud, combat the ridiculous with ridicule, the error with truth, and don’t worry overmuch about stepping on toes.

Now let’s see: where have I heard this conflict before? Ah, yes. It was Amy Sullivan, who warned us that Democrats needed people of faith to win elections. She couldn’t have known how badly that would work for Republicans, who herded the faithful into their tent, only to find that they couldn’t get rid of them. Now the delusional folk are wanting to run the whole show, with predictably disastrous consequences.

So let’s address the religion article first. And just for perspective: these articles ran on the same day as these news stories:

Dozens of rabbis fly over Israel praying to defeat swine flu

The aim of the flight was to stop the pandemic so people will stop dying from it,” Rabbi Yitzhak Batzri was quoted as saying in the mass-circulation daily Yedioth Ahronoth.

“We are certain that, thanks to the prayer, the danger is already behind us,” added Batzri.

Mayoral Candidate Mary Falling Wants Creationism Exhibit

TULSA, OK — A mayoral candidate has resurrected a controversy over Creationism at the Tulsa Zoo.

A push to exhibit the Christian story of creation at the Tulsa Zoo failed four years ago. Republican candidate for Tulsa mayor, Anna Falling, is bringing the issue front and center.

It’s the same exhibit and the same arguments, but now it is given from the bully pulpit of a candidate running for mayor.

“Some may ask why this issue during a Mayoral campaign? And I say why not?” said candidate Anna Falling.

For Anna Falling, the road to city hall runs through the Tulsa Zoo. She’s made her Christianity central to her platform and now the exhibit depicting the Christian story of Creationism is her first campaign promise.

“Today we are announcing that God will be glorified in this city. He shall not be shunned. Upon our election, we hereby commit to honoring Him in all ways that He has been dishonored,” said Anna Falling.

These people live in the same century as we do. They have access to all the same knowledge that we do. The Enlightenment was 400 years ago. Sweet reason has had all that time to do its work. The non-confrontational approach has failed. They’re still here, dumber than ever, and trying to take over the world that science has created. By not confronting them, by not speaking out, we will let them win.

On the other hand, by speaking out, by coming out and being heard, by being loud and obnoxious and, yes, confrontational, we have seen our numbers grow. More people now identify as non-religious than at any time in recent history.

If my reading is representative, most of these gains are coming from people who haven’t been religious for a long time, but were reluctant to call themselves atheists or agnostics. For these people, all the noise about religion has forced the issue, and pushed them to re-examine their beliefs. It may have pushed some other people the other way, this is true, but those people probably weren’t convincible anyway. The only people I see complaining about noisy atheists are Fundamentalist Christians — and why wouldn’t they.

See, when you’re in a religion, it’s like you’re in a bubble. A big cushy bubble where it’s nice and soft, and everyone reaffirms your beliefs. And it feels goood. Now someone comes and gives your bubble a push. You have two choices. If you’re a confirmed believer, you retreat further into the bubble. That makes the noise stop. Drat those noisy people! Why must they challenge you? It certainly didn’t make you change, but then what were the odds of that happening? On the other hand, if you’re someone who makes reality your guide, that noise (plus the cognitive dissonance you already have floating around in there) may be just the thing that forces you to see how the facts conflict with what’s going on in your bubble. And when that gets loud enough, you might decide to burst your bubble and change your thinking.

But that only works when it’s obvious that there’s a disconnect between your bubble and the real world. So I’d say that when you have the facts on your side, your cause can only benefit from pushing the facts.

Now what about the South-bashing? This is trickier because while the US South has a definite inclination toward the most dangerous kind of lunacy, I’ve read comments from loads of people in the South who are progressive, and who feel annoyed and embarrassed by the attitudes of their neighbours. So I don’t engage in South-bashing. I’m not a big fan of stereotyping. Not very accurate. But I’ll gladly take on the lunacy. People who are convincible aren’t too crazy about the crazy anyway.

And this is what I think both authors miss: people are different. That is, some people are crazy, and some people are convincible, and they are not the same people.

You can take on the crazy with mockery and ridicule. They won’t like it. But the convincible will notice that you’re making sense. They’ll thank you for it. And all you have to do is tell the truth and tell it loud.

Humanists, Skeptics, and Atheists: Oh my.

Richard Saunders and Rachel Dunlop gave a talk as part of Secular Week at UWA. It was great to see so many people turning up, and from so many different groups. There were lots of Humanists, some Skeptics, and plenty of Atheists.

It got me thinking: the distinction between Humanists, Skeptics, and Atheists seems to be an age thing. The humanists (identified by a show of hands) were overwhelmingly older; about 60-something. How cool that must have been, being in the old guard and seeing the growth of rationalism now. The atheists were quite a bit younger, probably 20-somethings. (I’m an outlier.) The skeptics I’m not sure about, but they seemed half-way between.

It seems to me that all these groups are saying mostly the same things, but which one you are depends a lot on what was going on when you became a rationalist. Humanism seems to have a philosophical bent to it that matches with what was going on in the 50’s and 60’s. Skeptics seem to focus specifically on the debunking of dowsing, UFOs, and crystals, things people were talking about in the 70’s and 80’s. And the youth of the atheists seems to match the youth of this New Atheist movement in the 90’s and 00’s.

Does that seem about right to anyone else?

Oh, and if you’re a Freethinker, you’re just really friggin’ old. The only way you could be older is if you’re a Deist, but we don’t see too many of them anymore.

Why sue a genie? He’ll just conjure up a really good lawyer.

Back in my Mormon days, I believed in angels. By that I mean, I believed the stories about angels visiting Joseph Smith, and I agreed that angels could probably exist in theory somewhere. If someone claimed they’d actually seen an angel, I’d have been extremely skeptical. But they were characters in scripture, which I believed, so how skeptical could I have been.

But I never believed in genies — that was just storybook stuff. (At the time I saw no contradiction.)

Imagine my surprise to find genies treated as real beings in the Qu’ran. And now it would appear that someone is trying to sue one.

A family in Saudi Arabia has taken a genie to court, alleging theft and harassment, according to local media.

The lawsuit filed in Shariah court accuses the genie of leaving them threatening voicemails, stealing their cell phones and hurling rocks at them when they leave their house at night, said Al-Watan newspaper.

Cell phones. Voice mail. I’m tempted to say that these people don’t deserve the technology that they have. And the same goes for some Christians — today I saw someone smear a woman with cooking oil in an attempt to convince a supernatural being to heal her. That these people can even use a phone is amazing to me.

Pre-deconversion, I’d have thought that suing an angel was crazy, so I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that some Muslims think that suing a genie is equally crazy. Then again, if you think that angels and genies are real beings, it makes perfect sense to sue them like anyone else. This family’s unquestioning faith in their scriptures looks like insanity. Doesn’t it?

So here’s an interesting continuum. On the one side are people who are rational, don’t believe in supernatural beings, and live in the real world. On the other side, you have people who believe in angels and genies, and may try to sue them. They’re the ones who really believe their religion, but they’re (quite frankly) nuts. Someone in the middle of the continuum, like me back then, claims to believe in those things, but doesn’t really. These people can exist in the real world, but that means they believe in their religion somewhat less. This suggests that one is insane to the extent that they believe in the unreal beings presupposed by their religion.

Shopping for religions

When I left my religion of origin, it was because it didn’t live up to its hype. It claimed to be the one and only way that God had chosen to reveal his truth to humans. Then it turned out that not only was it not the Only True System, it wasn’t even a true system. Once that became clear, the choice was simple. I got out.

If you’ve left a religion, my hat’s off to you. I don’t really mind which reason was the one that got you out. And yet it seems to me that if you do the right thing for the wrong reason, there’s a very good chance you’ll end up reverting to an earlier wrong opinion.

I’m thinking about this because I’ve noticed this result from the latest Pew survey.

More than half of all Americans have switched religions at least once, according to an in-depth survey released this week.

And that may still be “a conservative estimate,” says Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

First off, religious mobility is a good thing. If people are becoming disaffected with their current religion, at least some of the movers will give up on religion altogether, and that will boost the numbers of ‘nones’. But to me at least, the reasons people give for leaving seem a bit weak.

The reasons people give for changing their religion – or leaving religion altogether – differ widely depending on the origin and destination of the convert: 71 percent of Catholics and nearly 60 percent of Protestants who switched to another religion didn’t think their spiritual needs were being met or they just liked another faith more, or they changed their views on religious or moral beliefs.

I know religion is a commodity, but it still seems weird to me to approach religion like a shopper. Maybe that’s because Mormons are used to putting up with their faith even if they don’t like it very much or disagree with it sometimes. After all, it claims to be the Only True Et Cetera, so what are you going to do?

This could be the scientist in me talking, but it seems to me that the only valid criteria for determining your belief system is: is it true? If it’s true, you accept it, even if it’s unpalatable. But look at these folks wandering around. They escape one religion only to bounce into another one. And how will they know if it’s the right one? Because of how they feel. Or they’ll like it more. Both poor reasons to accept an idea. They’d be better off it they’d realise that ideas are true to the extent that they match up with available data from the real world. And if they did that, they’d abandon the baseless doctrines that form the basis of all religions.

Ex-Catholics seem to have the right idea though.

Catholicism has suffered the greatest net loss in the process of religious change: Those who have quit the church, 10 percent of U.S. adults, vastly outnumber incoming Catholics, 2.6 percent of adults. Two in three of Catholics who became unaffiliated and half of those who became Protestant say they left the church because they “stopped believing its teachings.”

Well done.

UWA Atheist meeting

The UWA Atheist and Agnostic Society is having its AGM on Tuesday, 28 April. We’ll be voting for committee members and probably having some discussion on some activities we’ll be having later on in the year. Talks? Debates? Piss-ups? All on the table.

If you’re a person of little faith (or better yet, none), why not drop on by? I’ve been acting as sort of an unofficial faculty supervisor, but I may well find myself on the committee.

That’s tomorrow at 1 PM, in General Purpose Building 2, room G16.

Good Without God: The first wave

The first batch of posters for the UWA Atheist and Agnostic Society have hit campus.


We might not have gotten them done so quickly, but since the odious Christian Union blanketed the uni with their odd (and strangely defacement-prone) “Jesus Much?” posters, we had no choice but to remind students of the godless way.

It really is amazing that churches give so much money to CU. I think they see the university as some kind of huge recruitment pool for future tithers. But in the process, they’re wrecking people’s critical thinking skills and promoting mythology. Just the opposite of what should happen at university.

Anyway, future versions of the poster will have the main text somewhat smaller, and catchy slogans in the middle. Say, anyone have any suggestions?

What’s the point?

During one of those browser free-association moments, I found myself staring at the Mormon.org website. That’s the focus for their proselyting efforts on the Web.

Here’s something that really curdled my cream.

What’s the Point of Having a Family If It All Ends at Death?

I wanted to have a family but wondered what would be the point of having one, if it all ended at death.

I wanted a sandwich, but wondered, “What’s the point of having a sandwich if it’s just going to end when I’ve eaten the sandwich?”

This is something I’ve heard from a number of believers: if life doesn’t go on forever, then life is just some cosmic joke with no purpose.

I harbour no illusions that my family relations will last forever, since no one’s ever provided evidence of a world beyond. Nevertheless, I see a great deal of point in having a family. I get to have good people in my life. I get to raise a couple of good men for the next generation of humankind. We have good talks. My beloved and I get to live together happily, right now. That’s worth something, even if it doesn’t last forever.

Life is cool. There’s so much to enjoy: get-togethers with people we love, good food, books, music. And sadness and frustration. A whole universe of wonder and discovery. And for this creep to sit there and say ‘What’s the point?’ is a kind of petulance bordering on ingratitude.

ARIS poll says non-believers up

Finally had time to get a good look at the ARIS survey everyone’s talking about. The big news: most religions are down, non-theists up.

The percentage of Americans claiming no religion, which jumped from 8.2 in 1990 to 14.2 in 2001, has now increased to 15 percent. Given the estimated growth of the American adult population since the last census from 207 million to 228 million, that reflects an additional 4.7 million “Nones.”

If all those ‘nones’ were a religious group, they’d be the third most populous, behind Catholics and Baptists.

And if you want some striking graphics to illustrate, USA Today has them.

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