One of the main themes of the ‘Collision’ discussion was morality. Ben the Christian had no argument with the idea that atheists could be moral, but he thought they were borrowing Christian morality (which actually predates Christianity). Like Wilson in the film, he argued that Christians could explain why a deed was moral or immoral (God seddit), but atheists couldn’t.
In fact, atheists can explain why we’re moral: we have brains (with, yes, mirror neurons) that can feel the feelings of others. When we see someone that’s hurt or sad, we feel like it’s happening to us, and we don’t like it. This gives rise to compassion, empathy, and all those nice things.
Here’s the interesting part (and this line of thinking arose out of a discussion with Mark Ellison):
• A theory is better if it explains more.
• Atheists can explain why atheists and Christians are moral.
• Christians can explain why Christians are moral, but they have no idea why atheists are moral.
• Their theory explains less. This is a problem for their theory, not for the theory of atheists.
No, really, they simply have no idea why atheists are moral. Take a look at the recent column from Billy Graham.
DEAR DR. GRAHAM: The kindest, most thoughtful person I know says she’s an atheist and doesn’t even believe in God. I always thought we needed to believe in God before we’d behave like she does, but I guess this isn’t necessarily true, is it?
…
[Graham responds:] Why is she such a kind and thoughtful person? I don’t know the reason; perhaps she simply has a sunny personality (as some people do), or perhaps her parents taught her to be kind and considerate when she was growing up. But I do know this: She’s not this way because she’s an atheist. In fact, she’s this way despite her atheism — because a true atheist has no real reason to believe in right and wrong or to behave sacrificially toward others.
But if they do behave this way, and you can’t explain it, doesn’t that mean there’s something lacking in your explanation, and not with atheism?
By making this argument, Christians are trying to give us their problem. But the difficulty inherent in their position belongs to them.
12 August 2010 at 3:55 am
They're basically saying they only behave because they live under threat of punishment. If not for that, they'd all get busy raping and pillaging.
And we're supposed to admire that about them.
12 August 2010 at 4:32 am
It's interesting because many Christians don't live under the threat of punishment – once saved always saved. It doesn't matter what you do after you have accepted Christ and have been saved. Yet, these types of Christians are still generally moral (from what I can tell). I have heard that some Christians believe that atheists secretly are afraid of eternal punishment and that this is the real reason why atheists can be morally good.
12 August 2010 at 5:04 am
Well, obviously all atheists are covert Christians.
We'd be immoral, except that we've caught morality from the Christians among us.
12 August 2010 at 8:51 am
I sometimes think the 'christians' are saying behind our (atheist) backs- "They really do believe, they just think they are too cool to admit it"
As for only being moral out of fer? That reminds me of one of my fvourite (atheist) bumper stickers –
"Have you threatened your children with eternal damnation today?"
12 August 2010 at 9:23 am
Funny because I've genrally heard it as "all atheists are secretly afraid of eternal punishment – that's why they refuse to believe in god".
Admittedly it's self contradictory but hey, I didn't say it.
12 August 2010 at 9:24 am
"generally" sigh.
12 August 2010 at 10:10 am
Wow, Graham's reply is terrible.
That said, the mirror neurons argument is pretty moot. Where's the concrete science linking them to empathy, and do you really need it? I think the argument would be just as strong if you said "Some atheists like to be compassionate, just like some atheists like chocolate ice cream. I guess they were just born that way.".
@Andy: acting morally because it "feels good" is no less spurious than acting morally because you fear punishment (that feels bad). Get off your high horse and don't be so condescending. You wouldn't know if atheists were capable of raping and pillaging if there were no threat of punishment, because every society has punishments for that type of behaviour.
12 August 2010 at 11:37 am
I really don't think that morality, or immorality, depends on our beliefs, or unbelief/disbelief. There are priests who molest kids, moslems who blew up thousands of ppl, and seem to be planning to blow up more, and too many other examples.
When I was a Christian I did not try to do good because I was afraid of hell but because I wanted to please God. As an atheist I try to do good I think because I want to feel self-satisfaction, man is an egoistic species, after all. And I have to admit that even when I was a Christian this self-satisfying urge was quite dominant as well.
12 August 2010 at 12:40 pm
I was very taken aback to hear this said over and over again at the 'Collision' discussion… that Atheists have no reason to be moral. I had not yet encountered this view point and I was baffled for a while as to how anyone could believe such nonsense.
I thought that the arguments that Hitchens, Midgely and others gave would have been satisfactory. We behave morally because we don't want anyone else to be hurt. I don't know much about mirror neurons or the like but I do know what it is like to be a mother. It kills me to see my children in pain. Another thing I have noticed is that when I see other people in pain I have this motherly urge that kicks in and I want to rush over and protect them much as I do when my own children are hurt. I don't know why this is but I can tell you that I sure don't need god to tell me to help someone in need. I can well do without the 'help' that the Christian god offers.
12 August 2010 at 1:39 pm
Excuse me Dean. I am an Atheist and I am saying that it is not for fear of punishment that I don't rape and pillage and murder – I simply have no desire to. I have morals and I feel empathy for others but I don't think that comes into it either (at least, not with the big things like murder and rape). I simply have no desire to do these things. I don't get the urge to do them and then have to talk myself out of it by saying "I'd better not, I don't want to go to hell" or "I'd better not, I don't want to go to jail" I just have no desire to do these things. Same as I have no desire to eat dog poop.
To paraphrase Daniel, the only people who have a problem with Atheists having morals, are Theists, and that's their problem.
12 August 2010 at 3:20 pm
Morality is an adaptive trait for a social species. If you're not good to your fellow beings your band is not going to fare well. Note that in Judeo-Christian law as stated in Exodus and Leviticus God says, "Thou shalt not kill" and then turns around and orders the genocidal killing of those poor others that happen to be living in the Promised Land. You have to be good to your band but others are exempt from your goodness.
12 August 2010 at 4:11 pm
It just makes sense to behave in a way that could be described as 'good' or 'moral'.
You could say it's because of evolution. We've developed into a species that lives in a community, and the best way to maintain that community is to not do nasty things to each other. Any individual behaving in an 'immoral' manner would be ejected from society.
It seems odd to me that someone would need to impose religion on something that comes naturally in order to explain it. We breathe in, we breathe out; we do good to others, they do good to us. It's not a conscious act or something that is explicitly taught, it's part of being a functional human being.
12 August 2010 at 10:21 pm
isn't it simply logical to try to treat others well. If I kill someone does it not follow that others may kill me? If I diminish the life of another does it not follow that I diminish my own life? I thought this was the basis of ethics (still not really sure about the difference between ethics and morality). I have never needed a god to understand this.
12 August 2010 at 11:18 pm
I have far more respect for someone who is motivated toward good than for someone who can driven by fear.
Am I on a high horse? I say unto you: Neigh.
13 August 2010 at 4:10 am
@GodThanker You apparently have no immoral temptations (or are your claims only applicable to Andy's hypebole?), congratulations. You don't speak for all atheists.
@Katie's evolution arguments apply to behaviour, not motivation. It's not natural for everyone, that's why successful societies have evolved penal systems.
@jeffrey If you removed all penalties and provided an incentive for, say, killing someone, then it comes down to your personal downside utility for killing vs the utility of the incentive. If you don't have moral qualms about killing, you are acting rationally; I imagine this is a benefit for career soldiers.
@Daniel It's cool that some people act nicely because powerful empathy-neurons in their brains tell them to; I suspect such people are equally distributed among theist and atheist populations. For the rest who can be manipulated by fear of retribution, I'm glad retribution in the form of penal systems and scary-stories exists. However, people who feel smug about their moral utility function are as much on a high horse as people who feel smug about their chocolate-icecream utility function.
13 August 2010 at 10:59 am
That depends on how you 'define immoral' temptation though.
I have thought about immoral things briefly, for example, copulating with a friend's 'partner', but I don't think it was empathy that stopped me. or religion. or jail. Just that a passing thought isn't necessarily represent of something I really want to do.
I think peoples individiual definition of moral is very different though. If I think it's ok, then I think it's moral. So no, I don't have any 'immoral temptation'.
13 August 2010 at 8:54 pm
@Dean, but does threat of eternal punishment really work? Is that what is really motivating some Christian's good behavior? I'm sure some are … but it's still hard to say since we have examples of Christians who believe in a certain once-saved-always-saved philosophy yet don't rape and kill (generally). And also of many
It appears that Christians want eternal punishment/eternal reward to be the motivating factor for morality. If it's shown that morality, even the Christian's morality, is derived from somewhere else then it's one more thing that makes God irrelevant.
13 August 2010 at 8:56 pm
sorry didn't finish: we also have many examples of Christians doing bad things.