Every once in a while, the LDS missionaries find me, and every time it’s a revelation. The contents of a missionary’s mind are basically everything they remember from church, plus anything that gets them out of a scrape with some competing doctrine. Which means that I hear them saying mostly the same crap I used to say when I was a missionary. Not verbatim; the doctrine has evolved since I wore the badge. Think of it as Mormonism’s Greatest Hits, but with bonus remixes. And so it was this Sunday.
The opening move was mine: I explained that I was an RM and now a vocal atheist. I think this threw them off a bit; they were expecting to visit a member.
They responded with the crafty “Look Outside” defense. It goes like this: Just look outside. If there’s no god, than how did all those trees and plants get here?
My riposte, of course: Evolution is a very well-supported theory that answers many questions about the complexity of life on earth, and it doesn’t require you to believe that goddidit.
I suppose to the senior companion, ‘evolution’ meant ‘dinosaur bones’, so he decided to impart. “You know that the Lord can make things seem older than they are,” he said. “When he changed water to wine at the wedding in Cana, he was making something that was ‘older’ than water.” I made a mental note that water is just as old as wine, but I let it slide. “In the same way,” he continued, “he can make dinosaur bones that seem older than they are.”
I promise you I never would have said anything like that.
“Why on earth would he bother to implant fake dinosaur bones just to fool us?” I asked, dreading the answer.
“Well,” mused the elder, “when God made the world, he made it out of other planets. Some of those planets had the bones of animals already embedded in them, and those are our dinosaur bones.”
The Stupid was strong in the room that day. I hardly knew where to start. Explain about the from earth forming, not from being smooshed together, but by a coalescing cloud of matter pulled together by gravity? Point out the absurdity of layers of fossils being preserved in chronological order despite the smoosh? Ask what orifice he pulled that answer from? Demand evidence for the claim?
The cognitive overload was too much. All my tools of scientific sophistry were helpless. I was paralysed before the sheer magnitude of Stupid presented to me. Well played, elder. Well played.
20 March 2008 at 1:41 pm
How did you remain so calm?
20 March 2008 at 6:26 pm
Strange that he felt a need to defend an idea that, as far as I remember, is not part of official mormon doctrine.
20 March 2008 at 9:41 pm
It’s not official, but its widely held. Bruce McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith were pretty vocal about it, and I’m currently wrangling with the CES to get their crap removed from some of the older lesson manuals.
The ‘bones from other worlds’ nonsense comes from Cleon Skousen.
He was a loon.
-Alarik
20 March 2008 at 10:14 pm
Ah missionaries. I usually just nod my head, smile and get away from them as quickly as possible. It is just 20-somethings on a mission from God to save people seems like a terrible idea to me and nothing good is likely to happen. Anyway, they don’t know any better, so why play with them? It is like playing pranks on the mentally challenged. Sure, it might seem funny – but it isn’t right.
21 March 2008 at 1:07 am
Oh, I’m not traducing them pitilessly. They’ve come halfway around the world to convert people; the least they can do is engage with the very real issues involved when someone knows them and raises them, instead of only playing to people that aren’t aware of the game.
And I am nice about it. Well, as nice as I usually am. Hm. Maybe that’s not very nice. Oh well, I try.
Skousen was indeed a loon. And loons love him.
21 March 2008 at 1:45 am
I’m sure.
And it isn’t nice to call Skousen a complete nut. He’s done some of his homework and pulls his ideas from interesting source material (stuff I wouldn’t have found otherwise). His conclusions are completely off base though.
Personally, if I were these guys and really were passionate about knowing how all this fits together, I wouldn’t pull it together by taking quotes from various LDS leaders (out of context usually) and fill in the blanks with imagination. Instead, they should find something reasonable and well supported by the evidence. Then drive to the truth of the matter diligently and with great care (this is where I believe prayer helps in clarifying ones thoughts). I think people are able to distinguish the difference because the truth usually makes a lot of sense and resonates withe people. It gives insight into things we don’t understand very well.
22 March 2008 at 1:48 am
Hey, some of those 20-somethings are pretty clever. Not all missionaries are clueless. I’m with Daniel on this, it’s not usually a question of ability, but rather education. If the missionaries are going to get into this kind of conversation, they should study up on the issues.
…I still say Skousen was a loon.
25 March 2008 at 12:51 am
As a Jehovahs Witness, I did roughly 10 hours of door-to-door ministry a month ,on average, for the better part of 20 years. In all that time,after all the experience I got from preparing myself for whoever answered the door and anything they may wish to discuss,and after all the incessant bible study, I (nor anybody else I observed)never got any better with dealing with atheists or agnostics. We never learned anything about what other people believed in regards to science, we were only taught to fear it, so when someone with Daniels intellect came to the door we were easy pickins. I started to get really tired of it after a while, especially after experiencing some exceptionally obtuse indivduals who were able to make mince meat of our arguments. My JW father-in-law loves to bring up war with Mormons when they come to the door, “would you go to war if your country pressed you to serve, or if drafted?” They usually answer yes and that they would kill other Mormons if they were enemy combatants, his arms usually fold into the “I’ve got you right where I want you” position. Whenever he proudly starts telling me these stories, my heart goes out to them for some reason.
25 March 2008 at 1:35 am
‘Someone of Daniel’s intellect’! Thanks for the compliment, but really, I’ll have to return it.
One of the missionaries. afterward, did say “This has been very educational! You must be really smart.”
And said what I’ve said many times. “I don’t think I am particularly smart. In fact, I’m easy to fool. That’s why I need to use the scientific method and good evidence.” Words to that effect.
I think that atheism is the only solid place from which to criticise anyone’s religious beliefs. On my mission, Evangelical Christians used to rip on the Book of Mormon, but I would always point out the exact same flaws in the Bible. And their charges of LDS lunacy fell flat for obvious reasons. Just hold up a mirror.
But if I’d ever gotten an scientific rationalist, I’d have been toast, unless I had been willing to disavow the scientific method and take refuge in mysticism. Not an option, even then.
25 March 2008 at 1:59 am
I think that is interesting… another reason I don’t think missions are a good idea (trying to out argue or outwit your opponent seem to be in the wrong spirit of the thing). I discourage everyone I know from going on missions for the church (with few exceptions). I don’t think the members they convert are all that helpful (they generally baptize people that have mental, emotional, or other problems) and they join for all the wrong reasons. They don’t make very good members and soon quit coming (which is a relief). The only good reason to be a Mormon is if God tells you to be Mormon. That’s it. You don’t need a mission to tell someone that.
25 March 2008 at 2:06 am
‘This American Life’ did a piece a few weeks ago about 2 missionaries who were fulfilling their service in Manhattan. You can imagine the struggle they faced.
The most interesting part I found was when they were asked what they wanted to do for work after their mission, the one who answered could not think of anything he actually wanted to do, only what he could do with the skill he picked up as a missionary. Sales. “I think I could be a good door to door salesman”.
I thought much the same, I actually went into sales, and was pretty successful until I needed more than money for gas and diner food. Then I realized I couldn’t sell stuff I didn’t care about. The same reason for why door-to-door ministry was the first thing I stopped doing when I decided to slowly pull away for good from the Witnesses a few years back. My weekends have never been better!
2 April 2008 at 12:07 pm
I printed out a copy of this for the missionaries here. They thought it was hilarious and will spend all of tomorrow heckling the poor lads who knocked on your door.
2 April 2008 at 1:19 pm
Let he who has never believed that idea cast the first stone.
2 April 2008 at 2:44 pm
Well, if the “idea” is that dino bones came from other worlds that were smooshed together to make this one, then I’ve got a boulder to throw. My mormon parents never taught me that bull.